“I don’t like [F2] poking me down here [pointing to her vaginal area] but I want to see mummy.”
“Enquiry Visit to see K at school today in company with duty S/W. Also present was a teacher who K is close to. During the visit K disclosed that [F2] touches her private parts and she doesn't like it because it hurts. He doesn't say anything. Her Mum is present and it happens in her bedroom - it has happened twice. She confirmed the part he touches is the part she uses to wee.”
“DC S: … And do you remember when we were sat talking to you, you told us about [F2]? K: Mmm hmm. DC S: What did you tell us about [F2] when me and [Ms S] came to see you? K: Don’t wanna tell you. DC S: Oh, why don’t you want to tell me? K: ‘Cause I don’t want to. DC S: Pardon? K: ‘Cause I don’t want to. DC S: Oh okay. Why don’t you want to tell me? ‘Cause you’ve told me before. K: (inaudible) DC S: Okay. K: ‘Cause only if someone, well, only if my dad was with me I could tell you. DC S: Oh, okay, well, daddy, daddy’s on his phone a minute, dad’s had to, to make a phone call a minute. K: But [Ms Y]’s all right. DC S: [Ms Y]’s all right. K: Yeah. DC S: Okay. But you said, you told us about something that [F2] did that made you sad, didn’t you? Can you tell [intermediary] what that was? MS B: Yeah, I couldn’t come to your school so I don’t know what happened with [F2]. Could you tell me just one little bit of it? K: (shakes head) DC S: You told us about something [F2] did that hurt you. (pause) Can you tell me what that was? K: (shakes head) DC S: No? Why don’t you want to tell me today? K: ‘Cause I don’t want to say it. DC S: Okay. MS B: K, if that was you, (puts item on table) could you show me where [F2] hurt you? K: (shakes head) MS B: No. Okay. K: No. DC S: Okay. Where were you when… K: (indicates to item) MS B: There. DC S: There. MS B: Oh, okay, so K pointed to there. (indicates to item) DC S: Okay. MS B: And where were you when it happened, were you at your house or where were you? K: At, at mummy’s house. MS B: At mummy’s house. What room were you in? K: I was in my own room. MS B: In your own room. Okay. DC S: And you know when [F2] hurt you what did [F2] use to hurt you? K: Um, his finger. DC S: His finger. Okay. And you said that you were in your room, so is that your bedroom… K: Yeah. DC S: … at mummy’s house? K: (nods head) DC S: ‘Cause mummy, and you spoke about daddy, and mummy and daddy live in different houses, don’t they? K: (nods head) DC S: So it was at mummy’s house. And do you know where mummy’s house is? K: No. DC S: No. Okay. So you were in your bedroom. And was anybody else in the room when [F2]… K: No. DC S:… hurt you? K: Just him. DC S: Just him. Okay. And what did you, did you say anything to [F2] when he was hurting you? K: (shakes head) DC S: No. And how many times has [F2] hurt you? K: (indicates) DC S: Twice? K: (nods head) MS B: Is that two times or lots of times? K: Two times. MS B: About two times it was. (?) DC S: Two times. Okay. And who, who did you tell that [F2] hurt you? K: Um… (indicates) DC S: Told me, that’s right, you did. CB: I don’t know if, if K knows, what were you wearing when [F2] hurt you? K: A flowery dress. CB: A flowery dress. DC S: And when you said that [F2] hurt you with his finger and you pointed on, on your drawing, you pointed to a part, what do you use that part of your body for? K: For going toilet. DC S: Going toilet. Okay. And there’s two places you go to the toilet, isn’t it, two parts of your body that go to the toilet, one part of your body you use for a… what sort of toilet do you have? You have a, you go for a wee. K: Mmm. DC S: Um, yeah? And what else do you do, what other sort of toilet? K: (inaudible) DC S: Pardon? K: Daddy has (?) different toilet. DC S: Daddy had a different toilet. No, okay. But, so you have a wee or you have a poo, don’t you? Yeah? K: (nods head) DC S: So where [F2] hurt you was it where you went for a wee or where you go for a poo? K: Where I go for a wee.”
“DCS: …Are you worried about [F2] at the moment? K: (nods head) DCS: Yeah. Okay. And what worries you about [F2], K? K: (no visible response) DCS: Does it worry you what [F2] is going to say? K: Um… DCS: Or does it worry you what [F2] is gonna do? K: Nmm hmm. DCS: No, okay. Are you worried about what [F2] used to do? K: (shakes head) DCS: What worries you? ‘Cause if you tell us then we can help you, we can help to keep you safe. But in order to do that you need to tell us stuff. Do you see [F2] at the moment, K? Do you see [F2]? K: (no visible response)”
“K: I want to go back to my mummy. MS E: Want to go to mummy’s. DC S: Oh. And stay at mummy’s? K: (nods head) DC S: Mmm hmm. 'Cause you can't, you're not seeing mummy at mummy’s at the moment are you? K: (shakes head) DC S: And that's because something happened with [F2]. MS E: Okay, what happened with [F2]? K: I want [F2] to go home. MS E: You want [F2] to go home. K: Yeah. MS E: And why do you want [F2] to go home? K: I just want him to. …. DC S: Why, why don't you want [F2] at mummy’s house? K: I don't want to. DC S: Okay. Did something happen? K: (nods head) DC S: what happened? K: I don’t want [F2] at mummy’s. DC S: Okay. K: I want him to stay at his. DC S: You want him to stay at his. K: Yeah DC S: Why, why don't you, why don't you like [F2]? K: I'm tired. DC S: You're tied? K: (nods head) DC S: Okay. Why, why don't you like [F2]? K: ’Cause I don 't. DC S: ’Cause’ you don 't. K: Can I go back to daddy? DC S: Yeah.”
“1. Between 01.03.20 and 22.12.20, F2 penetrated K’s anus with his finger on at least one occasion. 2. Between 01.03.20 and 22.12.20, F2 penetrated K’s vagina with his finger on at least one occasion. 3. Between 01.03 .20 and 22.12.20, F2 touched K’s vaginal area on at least one occasion which was separate from the occasion in allegation 2. 4. The penetration and touching in allegations 1, 2 and 3 was sexual as there was no innocent reason for F2 to touch K’s anus, vagina or vaginal area. 5. M was present in K’s bedroom on at least one occasion when F2 touched K: M “told F2 off” and to leave and pushed him out of the room when he did not leave voluntarily. 6. M has failed to protect K from F2 by being present in the room when F2 had touched K's vaginal area and not (i) stopping F2 from touching K and (ii) not reporting him to the police.”
“110. The ABE interviews of K were not conducted in accordance with the ABE guidance. Of concern is that right from the outset of the main part of the interview DC S introduced F2 into the conversation by starting with "What did you tell us about F2 when me and Ms S came to see you?". The initial approach should be free flowing, just letting the child speak and yet in this case the interviewing officer immediately names F2. Counsel for F2 also raises concerns about the quality of the pre planning notes, which I accept should have been better. On the positive side, is that K was properly supported by an intermediary and the social worker was present. The officer properly dealt with truth and lies and careful consultation was undertaken with children's social services prior to the interview. 111. It is also of concern that the pre-ABE notes amount to a brief summary rather than a detailed note. 112. The court has to decide what weight if any to place on the ABE in light of the failings in that process. Counsel for F2 submits no weight. Counsel for the local authority submits that it should be given significant weight. 113. I have to take into account what effect the breach of the guidance may have on the evidence of K. The most significant is the suggestion by DC S that F2 has hurt her. This is being suggested by an adult, in authority to a child of 6. It is wholly inappropriate and may ordinarily lead to little or no weight being given to the ABE due to possible contamination. 114. However, I do take the ABE interview evidence of K into account for the following reasons: i) A failure to follow the guidelines does not mean an automatic bar. ii) The error on the part of the interviewing officer was significant but that is against the background that K has made similar allegations to family members and professionals both before and after the ABE interview. The ABE interview does not stand on its own. Indeed, the allegations made by K at school, a safe environment for her, are more detailed. iii) What K has said to her family and professionals supports what she said at the ABE interviews iv) There are the parts of the process that the interviewing officer did get right as set out above. v) DC S is trained in undertaking ABE interviews even though there was a flaw in the process on this occasion.”
“… it is well recognised that it is important, forensically, in a case of alleged sexual abuse, to examine the first point in time at which a child gives an account or accounts of alleged sexual abuse, the precise circumstances in which the account or accounts arose and how those were treated subsequently by those to whom they were made. It is therefore necessary, as I have noted, to consider not only what each of the children has said but also, and importantly, the circumstances in which they said it.”
“I hided under my duvet when he came in but he found me. Mummy came in and told him off but he wouldn’t go to his room so mummy pushed him out the door.. 2) To Ms G two days later: “When he did it in my room once mummy was there but she didn’t stop him”