“[51] … traders who take every precaution which could reasonably be required of them to ensure that their transactions are not connected with fraud, be it the fraudulent evasion of VAT or other fraud, must be able to rely on the legality of those transactions without the risk of losing the right to deduct the input VAT. [52] It follows that, where a recipient of a supply of goods is a taxable person who did not and could not know that the transaction concerned was connected with a fraud committed by the seller, Article 17 of the Sixth Directive must be interpreted as meaning that it precludes a rule of national law under which the fact that the contract of sale is void, by reason of a civil law provision which renders that contract incurably void as contrary to public policy for unlawful basis of the contract attributable to the seller, causes that taxable person to lose the right to deduct the VAT he has paid. It is irrelevant in this respect whether the fact that the contract is void is due to fraudulent evasion of VAT or to other fraud.” … [56]. … a taxable person who knew or should have known that, by his purchase, he was taking part in a transaction connected with fraudulent evasion of VAT must, for the purposes of the Sixth Directive, be regarded as a participant in that fraud, irrespective of whether or not he profited by the resale of the goods. [57] That is because in such a situation the taxable person aids the perpetrators of the fraud and becomes their accomplice. [58] In addition such an interpretation, by making it more difficult to carry out fraudulent transactions, is apt to prevent them. [59] Therefore, it is for the referring court to refuse entitlement to the right to deduct where it is ascertained, having regard to objective factors, that the taxable person knew or should have known that, by his purchase, he was participating in a transaction connected with fraudulent evasion of VAT, and do so even where the transaction in question meets the objective criteria which form the basis of the concept of “supply of goods effected by a taxable person acting as such” and “economic activity”. … [61] … where it is ascertained, having regard to objective factors, that the supply is to a taxable person who knew or should have known that, by his purchase, he was participating in a transaction connected with the fraudulent evasion of VAT, it is for the national court to refuse that taxable person entitlement to the right to deduct.”
“[59] The test in Kittel is simple and should not be over-refined. It embraces not only those who know of the connection but those who “should have known”
“… was accepting the principle that, so far as participation in the fraud was concerned, if a person had knowledge or the means of knowledge that fraud was being carried out at an earlier stage in the chain of supply, that would denote that he was a participant in the fraud and thereby lose his right to deduct. That is plain from Optigen ; it is plain from Kittel ; and the court in Mahageben was saying nothing different.”
“A Judge will exclude from his mind opinion evidence given by witnesses of fact. The panel member(s) will be instructed to do likewise.”
“… is not a matter of fact but a matter of opinion. It is merely a view of a witness on a matter on which the tribunal itself must reach its own conclusion, and as such is of no value as evidence. Such evidence may rightly be excluded on that basis. In most cases, however, we would not see it as necessary, or indeed proportionate, for a forensic exercise to be undertaken, either by the parties or by the tribunal, to identify any such matters in each witness statement and for the tribunal formally to direct that they be excluded. Generally speaking, we think that the parties can rely upon the good sense of the tribunal to disregard purported evidence that represents conclusions that the tribunal itself must reach. That can usually conveniently be the matter of submission at the substantive hearing, rather than a formal application to exclude.”
“Wow! Does that count as a comment? It's£100 ... I mean, this is just ... I'm struggling for words on how implausible that is. It's just ... utterly ... no one pays£100 more than list price for a handset, it's not even in the realms of [the] possible.” (2) There is no recognised body of knowledge or academic research covering the grey market in mobile phones and Mr Taylor’s evidence does not relate to any recognised standards or rules relating to trade in this market, matters considered to be a pre-requisite in Civil Courts before evidence can amount to expert evidence to ensure such evidence is reliable and can be properly assessed, considered and challenged ( Barings Plc & Anor v Coopers & Lybrand (a firm) & Ors [2001]PNLR 22); (3) Mr Taylor’s work has not been published or reviewed by anyone operating in the industry; (4) Although Mr Taylor did explain his work had been reviewed by others within PricewaterhouseCoopers (“PWC”) and KPMG he refused to name the individuals concerned and by not setting out the names of those who worked under his directions Mr Taylor has not complied with Part 35 of the Civil Procedure Rules; and (5) PWC and KPMG, Mr Taylor’s previous and present employers, have manufacturers and authorised distributors of mobile phones as clients. These firms have a clear interest in restricting the grey market for mobile phones, and therefore, as Nelson J said in Armchair Passenger Transport Ltd v Helical Bar Plc[2003] EWHC 367 (QB) at [29]: “If the expert has an interest which is not sufficient to preclude him from giving evidence the interest may nevertheless affect the weight of his evidence.”
“(1) … (2) It is said that Mr Taylor is not an expert. I do not accept that his evidence should be excluded on this ground. I make three specific points in support of my conclusion. (a) For most purposes, I think that Mr Taylor can be regarded as an expert. He has considerable past experience, which he describes in his witness statement, of the mobile telephone business generally, even though he has not himself worked in the particular sector of it in which the appellants have operated. Further, an important point in my opinion is that Mr Taylor appears to be KPMG's internal expert upon the mobile telephones sector. In that role it must be expected that he would have acquired a great deal of specialist knowledge of the business. And the content of his evidence displays to my mind that he plainly does have extensive knowledge and understanding of the field to which the evidence is directed. (b) In any case the Value Added Tax Tribunal rules provide as follows in paragraph 28: "28. Evidence at a hearing" "(1) ... a tribunal may direct or allow evidence of any facts to be given in any manner it may think fit and shall not refuse evidence tendered to it on the grounds only that such evidence would be inadmissible in a court of law." This rule is not an open sesame for any party to an appeal to call anyone to give evidence on anything. It does however relax, and in my judgment is intended to relax, some of the more rigid evidential rules which can arise in High Court proceedings. I do not accept the submission that the rule comes close to being a one-way option in favour of appellants. If HMRC wish to adduce in evidence a competent and informative analysis of a sector of business and of an appellant's activities within it, rule 28(1), in my judgment, enables them to do that without having to meet technical arguments about whether the witness does or does not strictly rank as an expert. (c) I should, however, say that I do accept that there are some respects in which what the Tribunal has said on this aspect of the case is not very happily expressed. I quote paragraph 1(1) of the directions: "The evidence of Gary Taylor of 14/03/08 is admitted as evidence of fact but with no special status as expert evidence." Then the Tribunal reverted to this topic in paragraph 5 of the reasons (which I have quoted earlier and do not repeat here). It is not altogether clear to me whether the Tribunal takes the view that all the evidence of Mr Taylor was evidence of fact and admissible as such or whether all that it was saying was that, given that the rules applicable to VAT tribunals draw no distinction between factual evidence and expert evidence, it does not matter whether Mr Taylor's evidence is categorised as expert evidence or not. Although the Tribunal's reasons are somewhat obscure on this, my own opinion is that the categorisation of the evidence as expert or not does not matter. As I have said, I have read Mr Taylor's evidence. It appears to me potentially helpful to the Tribunal, and it seems to me entirely proper for the Tribunal to have accepted it. (3) It is submitted that Mr Taylor's evidence is not relevant. I cannot agree with this. In my judgment the evidence is relevant. The Tribunal may or may not in the end accept it, but I cannot conceive of it as being regarded as irrelevant.” 25. It should be noted that Rule 28 of the Value Added Tax Tribunal Rules, to which Sir Andrew Park referred, has been replaced by Rule 15(2)(a) of the Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal)(Tax Chamber) Rules 2009 which, insofar as is relevant to the present case provides that the Tribunal may “admit evidence whether or not the evidence would be admissible in a civil trial in the United Kingdom.” 26. We also note that when it was put to him in cross examination that: “… before you said what you said today [regarding prices of certain Nokia mobile phones and whether they were unusual], I understood your case to be, and you may not know what it is, to be that these phones were not of any unusual price; did you know that?”
“I don’t see HMRC as my side.” 27. Although we have taken account of these matters, and notwithstanding having given it careful consideration, we derived little assistance from Mr Taylor’s evidence. 28. We did not hear from any other witnesses on behalf of HMRC but as their evidence, as contained in their respective witness statements, was not challenged these were admitted in evidence. 29. Asif Chandoo, Synectiv’s company secretary, made three witness statements on its behalf. He also gave oral evidence and was cross-examined at length by Mr Kerr. 30. We were also provided with extensive documentary evidence which included eg invoices, purchase orders, inspection reports and correspondence between the parties. 31. On the basis of this evidence we make the following findings of fact Facts Background 32. Connective (UK) Limited was incorporated on2 February 1999 . On24 March 1999 it changed its name to Synectiv. Its original director was Kamal Uddin and Suraiya Iqbal was the company secretary. Both resigned on18 November 1999 following a dispute between Kamal Uddin and Arif Chandoo who became a director and company secretary on16 November 1999 . Aqeel Ali was also appointed as a director on16 November 1999 until his resignation on27 December 2001 . Arif Chandoo resigned as company secretary on22 November 1999 and was replaced by Malika Chandoo until19 February 2001 . 33. Arif Chandoo is now the sole director of the company and his brother, Asif Chandoo became company secretary on1 January 2002 . The Chandoo brothers are equal shareholders each owning 500 ordinary£1 shares in Synectiv. 34. Before becoming a director of Synectiv, Arif Chandoo had lived in Dubai where he, with others, had founded Axiom Telecom which, we are told, is now the largest retailer of mobile phones in the Middle East. On15 December 1999 Synectiv Limited was incorporated by Arif Chandoo to prevent Kamal Uddin using a similar name for his business. 35. In March 1999 an application was made to register Synectiv (or Connective (UK) Limited as it was then known) for VAT with effect from8 March 1999 . The application form, Form VAT1, was signed by Kamal Uddin on5 March 1999 and stated that the company intended to make taxable supplies with an estimated turnover of£100,000 in the next 12 months and that there would not be any regular repayments of VAT. The main business activity of the company was stated to be the “wholesale and retail of consumer electronics”
“No, like I explained before, it's -- when Venison kicked off in 2001, it affected him badly. He pulled out completely from trading and that's the view he took. He felt that because of what happened, he didn't want to – you know, it's kind of once you are burnt, you didn't want to – so he made it clear how, you know, careful we should be and he took on the responsibility of developing new businesses and business development within our company. So in a way, the tasks were split.” 57. In the circumstances, given Asif Chandoo’s assertion that he had assumed responsibility for Synectiv’s wholesale trade during its 04/06 and 06/06 accounting periods when the transactions which give rise to this appeal concerned, all subsequent references to Mr Chandoo are, unless otherwise stated, to Asif and not Arif Chandoo. 04/06 VAT Accounting Period 58. In its 04/06 VAT period Synectiv undertook nine transactions on which it recovered its input VAT, three of these were for MP3 players which were transferred from the retail side of its business, four transactions involved the sale of mobile phones with two of these being buffer deals and the remaining two deals were transactions involving games consoles. 59. It also entered into the following six wholesale deals involving mobile phones on which it was denied input tax and which are the subject of this appeal. Deal A10 60. On25 April 2006 Synectiv sold 4,000 Nokia N90s to a French company URTB Sarl (“URTB”) at a profit of£90,740 . Synectiv had acquired the phones from Top Telecoms Limited also on25 April 2006 . Top Telecoms were supplied by The Export Company Limited (“TEC”) in two consignments of 2,000 units each on separate invoices dated 25 April and28 April 2006 . TEC which was supplied by JD Group PLC (“JD”) in two consignments of 2,000 units dated 25 and28 April 2006 , as was JD which had bought the phones from Regal Portfolio Limited (“Regal”). They bought the goods, in two consignments from Zenith Sports Limited (“Zenith”). Zenith had also acquired the goods from Computec Solutions Limited (“Computec”) in two consignments of 2,000 units on separate invoices dated 25 April and28 April 2006 . 61. A report received by HMRC from the French Authorities advised that URTB, Synectiv’s customer in this deal and deals A11, A14, A15 and J3, which achieved a turnover of over£286m in the months between November 2005 and April 2006, had been deregistered on28 May 2008 . It had also failed to declare intra-community acquisitions including the supplies it has received from Synectiv. 62. Mr Chandoo explained that his contact at, and his reason for trading with, URTB was David Suarez who he had known since 2003 or 2004 when they met at CITA, a trade exhibition in America. At that time Mr Suarez was working for a company called Bluetel based in Spain which was predominantly selling refurbished stock. However, as Synectiv rarely dealt in refurbished mobile phones there had been no trade between the companies. Because Bluetel sometimes traded in what Mr Chandoo described as “obscure SIM-free stock”, ie new, but more obscure models of mobile phones that were not selling well, there was occasional contact between Mr Suarez and Mr Chandoo and Mr Suarez had told Mr Chandoo that he was starting a new company in France selling predominantly SIM-free stock. 63. Synectiv had received an undated and unsigned letter of introduction from a Mr Meyer Uzan a “Director Commercial” of URTB. Mr Chandoo had not spoken to Mr Uzan or asked Mr Suarez anything about him. Not surprisingly the company documents provided to Synectiv as part of its due diligence on URTB were in French. They indicated that the company was established in 2002. Mr Chandoo, who does not speak French, said that if Synectiv was considering entering into trade with a French company he would ask his brother Arif, who does understand French, to look at the documents and advise if there was any issue. In these circumstances Arif Chandoo contributed to the decision as to whether to trade. Synectiv’s first transaction with URTB was concluded in January 2006 and as Mr Chandoo “felt comfortable” trade continued 64. Further information obtained by Synectiv as part of its due diligence on URTB included bank account details, which showed that it had an FCIB account, a copy of the identity card of Mr Suarez and a statement that it wanted its goods delivered to Roissy Airport. There was no other independent documentary evidence obtained by Synectiv on URTB although Mr Chandoo said that he had obtained satisfactory oral references from the freight forwarders, Interken Freighters (UK) Limited (“Interken”). 65. Synectiv had previously used Hawks as its freight forwarder but following Operation Venison had resolved to find an alternative. Interken was recommended by friends who operated a similar business to that of Synectiv in East Africa. Mr Chandoo met its director Rajan Ghai and inspected the facilities and, content with its procedures, agreed that Interken would have sole responsibility for inspecting and handling its stock. Mr Chandoo said that he made regular visits to Interken. 66. Top Telecoms, Synectiv’s supplier in this deal and deal A15, was incorporated on15 May 2001 and registered for VAT on 7 August of that year. In addition to it account with FCIB it also had an account with Barclays. A fax, dated8 October 2002 , from Etienne Louw of Top Telecoms to a then employee of Synectiv, Paul Burgess, states: Thank you for your fax. Please find attached our certificate of incorporation as well as our certificate for registration for value added tax. Top Telecoms Ltd is a global distributer of all major global brand mobile phones like Nokia, Ericsson, Siemens and Motorola. The Company was established in 2000 and with a combined experience of over 10 years in the mobile phone industry we are well poised to meet our customers requirements and provide a reliable service, second to none, in a fast moving and dynamic industry. I look forward hearing from you and establishing a long term mutually beneficial relationship between our companies. 67. Mr Chandoo said that he met the director of Top Telecoms, Hussain Awad, at the Mosque in Willesden “more than two years” before the time of the deals under appeal. He explained that as he predominately attended another Mosque he was “not a regular at [the Willesden] Mosque”, he did not know Mr Awad’s address or ask for proof of identification or seek references but he did obtain the company’s incorporation and VAT certificates and he had verified its VAT number with Redhill in April 2005. 68. When asked why he did not ask for references Mr Chandoo replied: “The reference I would have taken would have been from an industry counterpart, let's say, who would have said, "I know the company." I'm seeing the guy in the Mosque week in, week out. Surely there's some credibility – you are seeing the same guy – I accept not every week but you've seen the same guy for over two years. If he's not the guy he is, then there's going to be some difficulty there but I never – it never crossed my mind. It's just a genuine – to take a reference, to ask him: "Mr Awad or Hussain, can I have some identification from you?" I would have thought it silly, to be honest, and if somebody asked me who had been meeting me every week in, week out, I would have said no.” 69. Although Synectiv did not have an FCIB account all other participants in this and all subsequent transactions that are the subject matter of this appeal did have accounts with FCIB. 70. Analysis of money movements through the FCIB accounts show that on8 May 2006 TEC paid JD for 4,000 Nokia N90s. The monies moved along the supply chain on the same day through the accounts of JD, Regal, Zenith (via an account in the name of Zenith Electronics registered in the Netherlands and not the UK registered Zenith) and Computec. Computec paid Megatek SARL (“Megatek”) a French company and the monies then passed in sequence through the accounts of UAB Linis (“UAB”) based in Lithuania, Mortop Global Limited (“Mortop”) based in Israel and the Polish based company Amex FHU (“Amex”) to URTB, Synectiv’s customer. URTB used these monies to pay Synectiv making a payment into Synectiv’s account with Barclays. The transfer of funds from TEC to Synectiv took place in approximately 90 minutes. 71. On receiving the funds Synectiv paid its supplier, Top Telecoms, the VAT inclusive amount into a Barclays account. Also on8 May 2006 Top Telecoms then transferred funds of£430,650 to TEC from its FCIB account as part payment for 2,000 Nokia N90s. It made a further payment of£535,000 to TEC on11 May 2006 apparently in part payment of the remaining 2,000 phones. 72. Computec was incorporated on18 August 2004 and registered for VAT on 1 November of that year. It submitted £nil VAT returns for all accounting periods from 11/04 until 02/06 and did not submit any subsequent VAT returns. However, documents obtained from freight forwarders indicated that it had acquired wholesale quantities mobile phones from traders in EU Member States and supplied them to UK traders in deals generating a VAT liability in excess of£100m in April and early May 2006. When HMRC officers visited Computec’s premises on8 May 2006 it was found to be an accommodation address only and no one from the company was present. Correspondence was left at the premises cancelling the VAT registration. Assessments were issued in respect of its VAT liability which have not been challenged or appealed. 73. In this deal, as in all subsequent deals each of the traders concerned deducted their margins from the monies received before making payment to their suppliers. Deal A11 74. The following transactions also took place on25 April 2006 . 75. URTB bought 4,000 Nokia N70s from Synectiv which made a profit of£72,220 on the transaction. Synectiv had acquired the goods from TEC which, in turn had been supplied by Tibuski Tech Limited (“Tibuski”). Tibuski’s supplier was Excell Distribution Limited (“Excell”) which had been supplied by Park Supplies Limited (“Park”). Park had purchased the goods from Colston Associates Limited (“Colston”). 76. Mr Chandoo explained that, although the business relationship with TEC (Synectiv’s supplier in this and deal J3) stemmed from contacts made by Paul Burgess, he would regularly meet Vipul Patel TEC’s director and Arshad Mahmud its “main trader” at Interken, the freight forwarders. However, Mr Chandoo did not visit TEC’s premises or obtain a reference saying: “I felt comfortable. I always say this: we are not in the business of ticking boxes. A lot of companies say, "Yes, I've done that, done that, done that." No. I had a personal contact, I felt comfortable to work with the person. I didn't take identification from them, you are right, but if you are meeting somebody again and again and again, you are not going to ask them that.” 77. The information provided to Synectiv by TEC by way of due diligence included an undated and unsigned letter of introduction which appeared to have been sent by fax in January 2006, a copy of its VAT registration certificate showing a date of registration of1 August 2001 , a certificate of incorporation dated5 February 2001 and bank account details of accounts with Clydesdale Bank and the FCIB. 78. On12 May 2006 UAB made a payment to Mortop of£948,000 in relation to 4,000 Nokia N70s. Mortop paid these monies to Amex as part of a bulk payment of over£2.2m . Amex paid£948,000 to URTB which paid£938,000 to Synectiv. The monies took under an hour to be transmitted from the FCIB account of UAB into Synectiv’s Barclays account. 79. On15 May 2006 . Synectiv paid TEC in two instalments from its Barclays account into an account held by TEC with Clydesdale Bank. On16 May 2006 TEC paid Tibuski from its FCIB account and Tibuski paid Excell. Although Excell had been supplied by Park it made payment, less commission, directly to Macdelta on the instruction of Park which had requested that Excell pay it, Park, a commission of£5,000 and the balance to Macdelta. No funds were paid to Macdelta’s supplier Colston. On receipt of the funds Macdelata paid UAB£984,700 . The transactions starting with TEC and ending with UAB were completed in about an hour. 80. Colston was incorporated on11 October 2005 and registered for VAT from29 December 2005 . Its VAT return for the 02/06 accounting period was returned to HMRC marked “gone away” although in a subsequent telephone call purporting to be on behalf of the company information was sought as to how to change the address of a principal place of business and HMRC were advised that the business activities had changed. Documents found at a freight forwarder indicated that Colston had been acquiring goods from the EU on25 April 2006 . 81. An officer from HMRC telephoned Colston on26 April 2006 and spoke to a person who identified himself as a director but was unable to give the address of the company and accepted that he was not a director but was taking calls on the director’s behalf. The company was deregistered on26 April 2006 This was later amended to30 April 2006 simply because between 25 and30 April 2006 it had made supplies in excess of£113m with a liability to VAT of£30m . As this had not been declared to HMRC an assessment was issued on the company which has not been challenged or appealed. Deal A12 82. On26 April 2006 Synectiv sold 4,000 Sony Ericsson W810is to a Dutch company GSM Touch BV (“GSM”) at a profit of£83,800 . It purchased them on the same day from Broadcast Limited (“Broadcast”). The supply chain for these phones has been traced back to Colston via Daraj Trading Limited (“Daraj”), Excell, Xcel Solutions Limited (“Xcel”), Futuristic Electronics Limited (“Futuristic”) and Fortwell Limited (“Fortwell”). 83. GSM, Synectiv’s customer in this deal and deals A13 and J5, was incorporated by Akmal Atta Mian, a Dutch national and the director of Broadcast (which was Synectiv’s supplier in this and deals A13 and J5) in 2002. It commenced trading in October 2005. Its turnover the following year exceeded£127m . Information obtained by HMRC from the Dutch Revenue Authorities states that GSM “is managed by Bernardus Willy Braams who “does not have any experience in international trade. He worked in the catering industry and with car tyres. He learned the trade from H A Mian.” 84. Shortly after the commencement of trading, in November 2005, GSM sent an unsigned and undated letter of introduction by fax to Synectiv. Also sent with the letter were the company and VAT registration documents of GSM. These showed that GSM was registered for VAT in the Netherlands on11 October 2005 . 85. In January 2006 whilst at Interken, Mr Chandoo happened to meet the director of GSM, Bernardus Willy Braams. Following that meeting Mr Chandoo decided to “do business” with GSM without requiring the supply of any identity documents. He had sought identity documents from URTB and another customer, French company Evolution SARL (“Evolution”) but he decided that in the case of GSM such documents were unnecessary explaining that: “It [the identity document] may have been forthcoming … but I didn't particularly go to see Mr Braams, I think I made that clear, and say – I think – he was there, he was seeing Interken, Interken must have been comfortable that this is Mr Braams of GSM and I felt comfortable this is Mr Braams of GSM.” 86. Broadcast, Synectiv’s supplier in this and deals A13 and J5, was contacted by Mr Chandoo. As he explained: “I was at Interken, a lot of the stock I had seen a label which said "Broadcast" on it. I had made some simple enquiries via Google – it could have been Google or another Internet search company – just to find out where the company was based. I was able to get a number. I contacted the company, and arranged a meeting with the director [at his office in Uxbridge]” 87. As has already been noted (at paragraph 83, above) Akmal Atta Mian, the director of Broadcast, was responsible for the incorporation of GSM (Synectiv’s customer in this deal and deals A13 and J5). Having visited Broadcast’s premises Mr Chandoo was satisfied that it was “fully aware of the need to satisfy itself with the integrity of the supply chain” and the first transaction with Broadcast took place on28 February 2006 . 88. On that day Broadcast sent Synectiv, by fax, an undated and unsigned letter of introduction stating that Broadcast is “a worldwide distributer/exporter of Mobile phones of all leading brands”
“He was delivering stock to New Way at the time I was collecting stock from New Way. And I obviously looked at it as an opportunity to – we were always looking for ways to meet new suppliers and new customers. We had a brief discussion about his involvement in the telecom industry. He had actually already known us; Synectiv was quite a well-known company in the trading because of its authorised distributorship. … So he was aware of us and actually keen to work with us. And we felt that he was supplying stock to a supplier that we were taking stock from, so I felt comfortable to work with him.” 96. On his return to Synectiv Mr Chandoo mentioned the meeting to his brother Arif who said that he was aware of Owl and had previously met Bobby Sharma. Although an undated and unsigned letter of introduction was sent to Synectiv by Owl together with certificates of incorporation and VAT registration and bank account details, Mr Chandoo did not consider it necessary to obtain any proof of identification or trade references explaining that: “… by the visit I have obtained verbal references, because if he's supplying stock to New Way, I believe in essence that is a kind of reference. I'm buying from New Way International; he's supplying New Way International.”
“… the way we traded is we were not giving credit out, so we were comfortable that our main issue was: was he financially strong? Could he pay for stock? Was he reliable?”
"Hang on a second. This guy has never bought stock before. He's never paid for stock."