"According to the position of Mr N walking towards us, and the position we were in walking towards him, according to his statement and interview, he could not have seen my hand touch J when I scooped him with my hand and put two and two together. He was mistaken due to the position of myself."
"He registered a smack. He stopped pulling in the opposite direction and then you guided him in the direction you wanted him to go in."
"The thing is I've been a Social Worker for 30 years. Your insistence that I actually smacked him could actually result in my dismissal."
"Was the action of me scooping him round, which yes, is a smack action for the arm, but it was only to guide J's back towards me. As I then bent down my hands would have been level with the top of his legs and his buttocks but they were not in contact with them. So I put it to you again that you thought you saw a smack because of the action of my hand and your brain thought smack."
"If I was going to guide someone along I wouldn't do it from the back of someone's legs or bottom. In my opinion, Roy I'm sorry, but it's a smack."
"I know, but I am. I am very aware of the situation and I can't believe that an off the cuff comment to a secretary could come to this, to someone losing their job."
"The statement of Mr N was presented and you were invited to ask questions of him. Both Mrs Lee and yourself asked questions of Mr N who confirmed that he had seen the event from a distance of approximately 30 feet and was adamant that you had smacked the child. He did not accept the suggestion that you had scooped him round towards you. He believed that you had smacked the child and that the reaction of the child supported him in that belief."
"that looked at as a whole the investigation carried out by Mr Recchia was reasonable and sufficiently thorough in all the circumstances. The extent of the investigation was certainly sufficiently to meet the criteria that a reasonable employer would require in these circumstances."
"25. The Tribunal is mindful that it must not judge the fairness or otherwise of the claimant's dismissal on the basis of how the members of the Tribunal might have reached a decision had they been conducting the disciplinary hearing or the appeal hearing. Having said that the Tribunal is of the unanimous view that no reasonable employer could properly have concluded on the basis of the evidence presented to Mr Recchia and Mrs Recchia that it was more likely than not that the claimant had smacked the child in question. The key - and only - evidence upon which the respondent relied to support such a contention was the information obtained from Mr N. However in reflecting on this information it is clear that both Mr Recchia and Mrs Recchia appear to have asked themselves the wrong question, i.e. "why would Mr N make up a story that was not true" rather than "could Mr N have been mistaken as to what he genuinely believed he saw"
"British Home Stores Ltd v Burchell Arnold J at1980 ICR 303 at 304 B-G The case is one of an increasingly familiar sort in this Tribunal, in which there has been a suspicion or belief of the employee's misconduct entertained by the management, it is on that ground that dismissal has taken place, and the tribunal then goes over that to review the situation as it was at the date of dismissal. The central point of appeal is what is the nature and proper extent of that review. We have had cited to us, we believe, really all the cases which deal with this particular aspect in the recent history of this Tribunal over the three or four years; and the conclusions to be drawn from the cases we think are quite plain. What the tribunal have to decide every time is, broadly expressed, whether the employer who discharged the employee on the ground of the misconduct in question (usually, though not necessarily, dishonest conduct) entertained a reasonable suspicion amounting to a belief in the guilt of the employee of that misconduct at that time. That is really stating shortly and compendiously what is in fact more than one element. First of all, there must be established by the employer the fact of that belief; that the employer did believe it. Secondly, that the employer had in his mind reasonable grounds upon which to sustain that belief. And thirdly, we think, that the employer, at the stage at which he formed that belief on those grounds, at any rate at the final stage at which he formed that belief on those grounds, had carried out as much investigation into the matter as was reasonable in all the circumstances of the case. It is the employer who manages to discharge the onus of demonstrating those three matters, we think, who must not be examined further. It is not relevant, as we think, that the tribunal would itself have shared that view in those circumstances. It is not relevant, as we think, for the tribunal to examine the quality of the material which the employer had before them, for instance to see whether it was the sort of material, objectively considered, which would lead to a certain conclusion on the balance of probabilities, or whether it was the sort of material which would lead to the same conclusion only upon the basis of being "sure," as it is now said more normally in a criminal context, or, to use the more old-fashioned term, such as to put the matter "beyond reasonable doubt."
"So in the context of s 98(4), the three relevant elements would seem to be: had the employer reasonable grounds on which to sustain his belief; had he carried out as much investigation as was reasonable; and was dismissal a fair sanction to impose?"
"Having regard to the findings of the Industrial Tribunal, I am satisfied that they were fully entitled to hold that there was a belief on the part of the Appellants that the Respondent had been guilty of the misconduct in question. It was not seriously disputed that the Industrial Tribunal were entitled to conclude that there had been a breach of proper till procedure, either by failing to make any record of the transaction, or by ringing up£1.35 rather than£2.70 , consistent with dishonesty. The real question was whether the Industrial Tribunal could reasonably have concluded that the Appellants were entitled to hold that the Respondent was the person who served Mrs Menteith and who operated the till on that occasion. This raises a matter of identification. On this issue the Employment Appeal Tribunal did not differ from the Industrial Tribunal. I agree with both of them that the delay of three days between the alleged incident and the Respondent being questioned about the matter was unfortunate but no hard and fast rule can be laid down in this regard, and it is not possible to hold that delays of a particular length are fatal to a dismissal. As was observed by Browne-Wilkinson J (as he then was) in Marley Homecare Ltd v Dutton[1981] IRLR 380 in para. 10, what is fair must depend in each case on the facts of the case. No doubt one possible way of preventing any possible injustice would be for the procedure suggested by Browne-Wilkinson J to be adopted, but there is no rule of law which requires such a method of investigation to be used. The Industrial Tribunal considered very carefully the evidence which was relied upon from the point of view of identification, and they recognised that neither Mr Maclean (the store manager) nor Mr Baillie (the personnel manager) had any doubts about the sufficiency of the identification of the Respondent. Moreover when it was put to them during their evidence before the Tribunal neither accepted that the description fitted the other employee who was the only other employee who, on the evidence, could possibly have been involved. The disciplinary hearing on 14 March took place before Mr Hughes (the former personnel manager). He too stated that he had no doubt on identification. In my opinion for the reasons given by the majority of the Industrial Tribunal they could not reasonably conclude that a reasonable employer was not entitled to take the view that the shop assistant who had carried out the test transaction with Mrs Menteith was the applicant. The majority took the view that they could not criticise the Appellants for not confirming the identification by Mrs Menteith by a face-to-face confrontation between Mrs Menteith and the Respondent before taking the decision to dismiss. They held that there were no grounds for holding that the Appellants had failed to carry out a full investigation. The majority of the Industrial Tribunal appear to me to have applied the correct test as laid down in British Home Stores Ltd v Burchell[1978] IRLR 379 ; British Leyland UK Ltd v Swift[1981] IRLR 91 ; Iceland Frozen Foods Ltd v Jones[1982] IRLR 439 ; and ILEA v Gravett[1988] IRLR 497 . Unlike the Employment Appeal Tribunal, the Industrial Tribunal appear to me to have applied the correct tests and to have recognised that they were not entitled to determine by an objective standard whether the Appellants' belief that the Respondent had been in breach of the proper till procedure was well-founded; the Industrial Tribunal correctly appreciated that the question for them was whether the Appellants believe that the Respondent was guilty of these failures, and were entitled, having regard to the investigation carried out, so to believe."
"At the end of the day it appeared to me that what Mr Truscott was inviting us to do was to commit the same error as the Employment Appeal Tribunal, and to substitute our own views for those of the Industrial Tribunal. Mr Truscott's final point was that in the circumstances no reasonable employer would have decided to dismiss the Respondent having regard to her record of employment, her length of service, the amount of money involved, and the statement by the Respondents to the Industrial Tribunal to the effect that there was no suggestion of dishonesty. In my opinion, however, these were all matters for the Industrial Tribunal to determine, and this Court would not be justified in substituting its views for those of the Industrial Tribunal. It is plain from what the Industrial Tribunal say that any breach of till procedure was regarded by the Appellants as a serious matter, and the Appellants had always so categorised it. It cannot be suggested that it was unreasonable for them to do so. There was a whole body of evidence supporting the view that a breach of this kind, whether dishonest or not was a serious matter, and it was recognised that it was liable to lead to dismissal. The Respondent herself stated that failure to follow till procedures was very serious. All the matters which were favourable to the Respondent including her length of service, her absence of disciplinary record, and the fact only a small sum of money was involved, were considered both by the Appellant and in turn by the Industrial Tribunal."
"In my judgment it was an error of law for the Industrial Tribunal to seek to reopen the factual issues on the basis of which the domestic tribunal had reached its conclusion. If the procedure had been faulty, that would have been a failure by the employer to act reasonably. But on the evidence before the internal domestic body it was for that body to reach the decision of fact whether or not they were satisfied of the guilt of the charge of theft. In my judgment, therefore, there was a genuine error of law by the Industrial Tribunal."